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Meeting a Ghost: A Sample of Genuine Indian Yellow

23 thoughts on “Meeting a Ghost: A Sample of Genuine Indian Yellow”

  1. Very interesting post. It is a shame that you don’t provide bibliography about the manufacturing process of Indian Yellow. I was really under the impression that the cows being fed mango leaves was a myth and everything I have read recently points in that direction. Maybe there is new studies that I have not read … yet. Love also that you shared your data. Thanks a lot for the post and all the information in the blog.

    Reply
    • Hello Paulo,

      At the bottom of the article we include our sources in a bibliography section. The two by Rebecca Ploeger and one with Rebecca and Aaron Shugar offered nice synopsis of research into the manufacturing process, especially the “The Story of Indian Yellow – Excreting a Solution”. Check them out! It seems that as the science has evolved, there is mounting evidence that the story is likely true. Glad you like the content, we love sharing our testing when we can.

      Reply
      • Sorry but i didn’t notice that the papers in bibliography related to that, and only noticed after downloading them and not before making the comment. Thanks for the answer!

        Reply
  2. Really interesting article! Knowing the history of the color and getting some insight into the likely manufacturing process is fascinating. I believe that using urine as a processing ingredient is not that outlandish; historically, much indigo was processed with urine (and still is in some places). Even religious mores would probably not have interfered with such manufacture. Love the graphs and data as well. The title of the article The Story of Indian Yellow… is hilarious in the context of usually buttoned-up scientific titles. And finally, that this info can allow clarification of art forgery is just plain fascinating, and could be the plot of a movie.

    Reply
    • Yes, Richard it is a humorous article title and an appropriate one! We are glad you enjoyed this and we agree the subject is certainly worthy of a film! It is actually amazing how much research was dedicated to this subject and in some ways there is a trickle of humor there as well.

      Reply
  3. I am delighted you published the visible spectral data for this interesting pigment. Which instrument, make and model, did you use to perform the measurements?

    Reply
    • Hello Robin,
      Thanks for reaching out. We added these to the article for you. We used an Xrite CI7800 for the spectrophotometer and for the FTIR we used a Bruker Alpha II ATR. Hopefully that helps! Let us know if you have more questions.
      Best,
      Scott

      Reply
  4. HI there,
    I have had the pleasure of recently sorting the archives of Cornelissen and Sons in London (Colourmen since 1855) and found in them, two large balls of Indian Yellow, plus another jar of smaller balls… I realise my contribution will provide not an once of scientific evidence… but can tell you opening those jars (probably sealed some 30/40 years ago) was like entering a barn! A very pungent smell indeed… not unpleaseant but most certainly reminiscent of a cow shed and enough to convince me the story might indeed be no legend!
    Just thought I’d share for fun!!

    Reply
  5. Thank you for the article and reader comments. It is a wonderful blending of subjective apprehension and scientific analysis. Learning about the history of the materials we use enables us to imagine the possibility of connecting to the sensibilities of artists who used them in the past.

    Reply
  6. Very interesting article. Why didn’t you do a lightfastness test against Williamsburg and QoR versions of India Yellow. It would be interesting to see where in relation to Alizarin Crimson, the genuine Indian Yellow falls in regard to lightfastness.

    Reply
    • Hello CF,

      Due to the uniqueness and size of our sample of Genuine Indian Yellow, we did not have enough available to cast large drawdowns in triplicate like we would for standard Lightfast Testing. We agree it would be a nice addition to the article to have that data set. We will pass this along to the lab though and if we get more in it is certainly on the list of things we would like to do!

      Scott

      Reply
  7. In this modern age when anything seems possible, how is it that the original substance is not analyzed and recreated synthetically? There would seem to be a demand. I for one would definitely buy a good transparent orange yellow like in old hand coloued flower prints. Have tried various modern offerings, but nothing so beautiful.

    Reply
    • We have tried to mimic the working properties and color space using our India Yellow Hue, but the challenge you speak of has a lot to do with lightfastness. Recreating something that is akin to a genuine Indian Yellow, but that is more stable and lightfast as paint is challenging. It might be possible to find a dye-based colorant that gets to an even higher intensity, but it would not be as lightfast as a pigment. The availability of pigments of high lightfastness within a particular color space limits the pool to choose from as well. One of the graphs in the article shows how close we were able to come to recreating the same spectral curve of the genuine sample. We agree Genuine Indian Yellow is a lovely color and that color space is dazzling and very useful for mixing colors as well! Thanks for the post!

      Scott

      Reply
      • Thanks Scott, very nice of you to give a thoughtful reply. Still, I have two old books, e.g. Mrs. Loudon’s on annual flowering garden plants, hand coloured plates, the yellows , 1843, should be gamboge, Indian yellow – yet they don’t seem faded at all. Lovely yellows that I can’t duplicate. Since most brands of watercolour paints know that Indian yellow stands for something desireable, something good, and since one can buy synthetic indigo, synthetic alizarin, I wondered if there was an opportunity for someone to synthesise the actual chemicals in old Indian yellow. Or possibly try processing mango leaves another way, or maybe through cows with due regard to their wellbeing. Cheers, Seb

        Reply
        • That sounds like an interesting book Seb. We agree with everything you said! What was interesting during our research, was just how many papers were dedicated to the origin story of Indian Yellow. If there is sufficient interest, maybe there will be some synthetic alternative in the future. We all love a good story! Thanks for sharing with us Seb!

          Reply
          • Thanks for the note M. We will pass along to the lab in case they are unaware of this option. We like to bring in pigments routinely to see how they perform.

            Scott

  8. Thanks Scott, We’ll have to leave it at that – unless I get off to India and nose around. Of course there is the practical problem of how to collect cows urine – tie on a bucket? Cheers, Seb

    Reply

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