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OPEN Acrylics, Shellac, and SID

29 thoughts on “OPEN Acrylics, Shellac, and SID”

  1. I am curious as to any research being done using Golden acrylics on 1. plexiglas, sanded to accept acrylic gesso before painting and 2. sintra as an alternate substrate. Both of these materials seem to me suitable as substrate panels for either directly painting on or mounting canvas to. My current belief is that both are chemically inert, non-acidic. Would appreciate any thoughts on the matter. Thank you. regards, Bruce Bundock Kingston , NY.

    Reply
    • Hi Bruce –

      Thanks for the comment and questions. We have done quite a bit of testing on Plexiglas and other acrylic sheeting and a light scuffing is generally all that is needed to allow for good adhesion. We would share that you should never use any sort of solvent on these types of products, as it can cause damage (Chemical Resistance of Plexiglas ) so to degrease or clean simply use mild soap and water. Also, full adhesion will take a minimum of 72hrs and will continue to strengthen over the course of several weeks, as the last moisture and volatile ingredients leave.

      As for Sintra, the story is a little more complex. We have certainly have excellent adhesion to the surface, and so on that score there are no concerns. However Sintra’s reputation among conservators is mixed, with many supporting its use since it passes many tests for off gassing, while other conservators eye it with a lot of caution and believe much more testing is needed. So that makes it more difficult for us to endorse its use without qualification if only because there seems to be a difference of opinion among experts. That said, if wanting to use it, make sure to coat all the sides with at least acrylic gesso to prevent exposure to UV which is known to cause degradation.

      We hope the above is helpful and if we can do anything else let us know.

      Best –

      Sarah Sands

      Reply
      • Hi Sarah,

        Do you know if the situation is similar with polycarbonate (if solvents are also avoided)?

        I am thinking about applying a couple of coats of Polymer Clear Gel and then when dry oil paints with no solvents.

        Thanks,
        Richard

        Reply
        • Hi Richard –

          Polycarbonates will not be a source of SID, so that problem in particular is avoided altogether, and certainly none of the acrylic gels or mediums would cause any chemical problems with the polycarbonate. So you should be fine. Just keep in mins that for maximum adhesion for oils we would recommend our Fluid Matte Medium as a form of clear gesso. While oils should have more than adequate adhesion to Polymer Medium, we know that maximum adhesion in any system is achieved when painting on a matte, porous ground.

          Best regards –

          Sarah

          Reply
          • Thanks Sarah,

            I was thinking more about using the clear gel as a way to protect against any potential plasticisers leaching through the polycarbonate and paint over time.

            I’ve tried adding clear gesso from W&N to polymer clear gel and it adds a nice tooth for the oils to bond onto whilst remaining pretty transparent.

            Richard

          • Hi Robert –

            As far as I know and have read there should be no danger of plasticizers leaching out of polycarbonates like Lexan, or similar acrylic sheeting like Plexiglas. But we do think that having a ground that can provide some tooth and absorbency for oil paint to anchor to is a good idea.

            Regards –

            Sarah

    • Hi David –

      Thanks for the question. The first question would obviously be what you were hoping the Rabbit Skin Glue (RSG) to protect against. RSG might likely remain an effective oil blocker under acrylic gesso or paint, but we would not expect it to be an effective blocker of Support Induced Discoloration because it is very hygroscopic (or ‘water loving’) and with prolonged contact with moisture or high humidity will cease being a dried film and turn gelatinous. This could in turn allow impurities to pass through. That said, we have not done specific testing of this and so am only offering our best guess. In general RSG has fallen out of favor among conservators and material experts as it has been linked to the cracking of a large percentage of oil paintings and can cause a support to slacken and tighten dramatically in response to changes in humidity. Which by itself is never a good thing.

      Reply
  2. Hello Sarah,
    Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. My concern came mostly from my practise of using the egg tempera medium where rabbit skin glue and traditional glue gesso has been the mainstay for centuries. However, I never thought of SID before. My panels are usually on hardboard and I know the old panels (in the days before hardboard was invented) were wood. Although I have never seen SID occur in my work, even on the older pieces, I am starting to be concerned.
    The term “open” and ” closed” gel medium are unfamiliar to me. What do they refer to?
    With thanks,
    David

    Reply
    • Hi David –

      If you have not noticed or seen SID within your work then you are fine. It develops during the process of drying, so once an application like your traditional glue gesso has dried, then the danger of SID developing has passed. In other words, it will not all of a sudden appear years or months later. So all in all, I think you are fine. As for the use of the word ‘OPEN’ it refers to the name of a paint line we make, which in turn took its name from the fact that it has a very long’open’ time, meaning that the paint dries very slowly. None of our acrylics are described as ‘closed’, which in this case is not really the opposite. Rather we talk of them as being fast-drying. Or simply ‘regular’ acrylics.

      Hope that helps!

      Best –

      Sarah Sands

      Reply
  3. Just curious, but when you say that shellac based primers are suitable in some circumstances are you also saying that they’re archival?

    Reply
    • Hi Sean –

      “Archival” is one of those terms we try to avoid as it is so ill-defined; originally referring solely to the field of maintaining archives – as in documents – it has become something of a generalized catch-all phrase since then. Shellac has been used in the fine and decorative arts for centuries, both as a protective coating as well as a binder for things like India Ink, so we feel it is a suitable material as long as its vulnerabilities are taken into account – mainly that it will yellow and grow more brittle over time. However, used as a primer on an inflexible support, those issues will not really come into play so it should prove to be quite durable and longlasting.

      Hope that helps!

      Regards –

      Sarah

      Reply
  4. I couldn’t find how long these were left before photos were taken…especially considering that 1/8th inch of open gel may take a very long time to become dry.

    I’d like to try to imitate the experiment and try a few different things, as was hoping to work on panels with transparent layers, and I almost exclusively use OPEN acrylics.

    Is the effect of SID further decreased by more sealer layers, or does applying significantly more than 3 layers provide other problems?

    Reply
    • Hi Sarah –

      You are correct, with the OPEN gel involved we let these dry for several weeks before taking a picture. However, that was mostly to wait for the gel to become transparent, but you could clearly see it ambering in fairly short order – within a few days – so you can often know fairly quickly if something is failing to block SID, although the full extent of it might not be evident until it is finished drying altogether.

      In terms of the number of layers, we would expect that the more layers the more effective a sealer will be. To be honest we have not done much testing past three layers as by then most people would feel it was impractical as a set of directions, but certainly something you could test.

      Hope that helps and let us know how things go!

      Reply
  5. Thank you for this post. I have also use bin shellac on tiles,glass, and other surfaces which are non porous. This product is amazing and bonds to almost any surface to produce a porous surface.

    Reply
    • Hi Francesco. Yes, BIN can be great as a primer in a lot of situations, especially – as you point out – on hard to stick to nonporous surfaces. Just take into account the issues with OPEN when working on top of it.

      Reply
  6. Sarah,

    Zinsser is spelled with a double S and not a double N.

    Just thought you might want to correct the article.

    CL

    Reply
  7. Hi Sarah,

    I like to make my own paint. How would you recommend mixing a dye pigment like perelyne maroon into an oil? I can use a wetting agent like oxgall to get it wet but the trouble is with the oil. A chemist once told me that the dye will drift through the oil the same way carbon black will drift through cement and the block will discolor. Except here, I’m afraid a dye may bleed over edges or contaminate other wet paint. What would you do to mix the dye? I have heard shellac helps to trap the dye. But then, I don’t think shellac mixes with oil. Does anything come to mind that I could use? Thank you

    Reply
    • Hi Nicholas –

      What you need to do is to make what is known as a ‘lake pigment’, which is a process where a dye is precipitated onto a solid substance – often, aluminum hydrate or aluminum sulfate. If you do a search for ‘how to make a lake pigment’ you will find a host of links. We have not followed any of the various tutorials you will find, nor do we make lake pigments ourselves, but from what I could see it would make a fascinating and interesting set of experiments and explorations. But of course, with experiments come some risks and unknowns, so whether your resulting pigment is stable or lightfast or prone to some longterm issues are all unknowns. Am curious, why go through the trouble of using a dye when you can find Perelyne Maroon as an already prepared paint or pigment. While we do not have perhaps a precise match, our Perelyne Crimson is a beautiful color that perhaps would suit you? If interested you can find a paint our of it by clicking on its swatch here:

      http://www.williamsburgoils.com/products/colors

      Anyway, hope that helps and if you do decide to try and make your own lake, let us know how that goes!

      Reply
  8. Hi, I was chasing some information. I am using imitation leaf and sealing it with a dewaxed shellac. I know I can use it as an isolation barrier then paint oils over it but am I able to paint over the shellac with acrylic paints (will this hold or peel off) as long as I don’t use the open range. Also I am also using the dewaxed shellac to seal my wood and coating with 3 layers of gesso is this ok. I am tying not to buy a billion products. Also can I use the dewaxed shellac as a varnish over oils or acrylics..Thank you any help much appreciated.

    Reply
    • Hi Jenny.
      Thank you for your questions.
      The take away that I think will be most helpful is that this issue is about limiting the length of drying time whenever you are using acrylics over shellac. Regular acrylics have ammonia but are quick to become touch dry, thus limiting the SID concern. Continuing with thin, fast-drying layers is the way to work over shellac, especially for the initial layers. Try to limit the use of Retarder, Glazing Liquid, and of course OPEN products when working over shellac and shellac based primers. Also limit individual paint film thickness to more or less brushed on paint layers.

      So, for your specific questions, apply three thin coats of acrylic gesso, and allow each to dry really well (at least several hours between coats) before applying the next.

      Once the last gesso coat has been allowed to dry (overnight or longer), you can begin painting as desired.
      – Mike Townsend

      Reply
  9. From personal experience, I can assert that SID can and does appear months or years after the paint has dried. Acrylic and latex paints are porous, even as a dried, mature film. This is why latex paint replaced oil paints for structures – not only did it remove the hazardous solvents, but it allowed the film to breathe. This in turn meant no more peeling of paint in damp areas.

    The length of time it takes for SID to appear depends upon the film thickness, surface preparation, substrate, and ambient relative humidity. Having to destroy a number of my early acrylic pieces due to SID damage was a painful lesson in how acrylics differ from my former oil medium.

    Reply
    • Thank you Charles. Generally, Support Induced Discoloration occurs upon drying and curing. The thickness, the environment and the different dry times of the materials, would cause varying degrees to SID. For instance, since our OPEN Acrylics have a 30 day cure time, we see much more SID with the OPEN Gel, as it sits wet on the substrate for much longer than say, Regular Gel. If SID is a concern, we recommend 2 coasts of Gloss Medium on the substrate before Gesso is applies to block the SID. If you are seeing changes in the acrylics long after drying, you may be seeing what we refer to as the acrylic patina, which can happen with age and is described in this article:https://justpaint.org/defining-the-acrylic-patina/

      We hope this helps to clarify

      Reply
  10. I would like to know if using the B-I-N on the back and edges of the panel would help balance the issue of blocking moisture while using the polymer gloss medium on the front. I ask because from what I’ve read, the acrylic mediums work for SID, but not necessarily for blocking moisture. For months I’ve used cradled hardboard sealed with GAC100 on the front, back, and sides, but I would like to transition to the something more protective. Would this particular use of the B-I-N also be a good choice for permanent artwork?

    Reply
    • Hello Daylen,

      thank you for your question. We have not tested BIN’s capacity to block moisture in comparison to Gloss Medium. If you are keeping your panels indoors, it should be fine to use Gloss Medium on all sides and edges. For exterior applications we have priming instructions here: https://justpaint.org/preparing-panels-for-a-life-outdoors/.
      Products from hardware stores are usually not formulated to last many decades, so if you decide to use a Shellac primer, we would recommend applying it only around the edges and the back of the panel, but not the front. This document about rigid painting supports from the University of Delaware might interest you as well: https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/Documents/MITRA_Rigid_Supports.pdf

      Reply
  11. hello,

    i have a question regarding Support Induced Discoloration and 3-4 coats of acrylic gesso for oil paintings,
    if the SID affects only acrylic mediums and paint, why would it affect an oil painting with imprimatura?
    as i understand the discoloration is not going to raise up into the oil layer (also is it going to go through 3 or 4 coats of acrylic gesso?).
    thank you
    Eyal

    Reply
    • Hello Eyal,

      Thank you for your question. SID is only a concern for acrylic paints it has to do with them drying through evaporation. Moisture from the paint soaks down into the support and as the paint dries it can pull the moisture back up into the acrylic layer through a capillary like action. So you are correct, it would really only potentially affect the acrylic gesso, it would not affect the oil paint layer. Depending upon the support something like MDF, for example, could very well cause discoloration even at multiple layers of gesso. This is because the acrylics are porous. So two coats of Gloss Medium should work well to block this and with oils you really need two to three layers of acrylic to block oil penetration into the support, so these Gloss Medium layers would count towards that. The other thing to keep in mind is that SID typically happens only during the drying phase, so if you do not see SID in your gessoed supports, it is not likely it will occur or progress once you continue painting with oils.

      We hope this helps answer your question, email us at help@goldenpaints.com if we can help with this in more detail.

      Best, Scott

      Reply

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